Death of James R. Worrell, Jr. (1966)
Chances of dying in a motor vehicle accident from 1964 to 1966 combined: 75 out of every 100,000, which is 0.075% for one witness dying in a motor vehicle accident. In this case, two people who (apparently) saw Oswald less than 15 minutes apart and in both cases apparently with a sports jacket on, died in traffic accidents in 1965 and 1966. That's a 0.006% chance. That's about 1 in 17,000 chance. We could add Lee Bowers to that, by far the biggest candidate to have seen the shooter at the grassy knoll, who also had a view on the backside of the Texas School Book Depository. Bowers drove his car to a bridge pillar in August 1966, with the car nearby ignoring the accident. That's 0.0004%, or a 1 in 240,000 chance, of happening.
***
TWO KILLED IN A CRASH
DALLAS MORNING NEWS
NOVEMBER 6, 1966, P. A-11.
A man and woman in their 20's became Dallas' 115th and 116th traffic fatalities [on a population of 840,000] of the year Saturday when they were killed in a motorcycle accident shortly before 2:30 p.m. in the 2100 block of Gus Thomasson.
Dead in arrival at Parkland Hospital was James R. Worrell Jr., 23, of 13510 Winterhaven, Farmers Branch, operator of the motorcycle. His passenger, Miss Karron Lee Hudgins, 22, of 9756 Skyview, died shortly after arrival at Parkland.
Both suffered severe head and internal injuries. Accident investigator J.N. Feinglass said Worrell was headed north on Gus Thomasson in East Dallas when he apparently lost control of the motorcycle, a 1965 Honda. It struck the median curb, jumped the median, and overturned in the southbound traffic lane. Worrell was thrown against the curbing.
Miss Hudgins was thrown into the front of a stopped car in the southbound lane driven by H.E. Cooper, of 14229 Marsha Lane, Mesquite. He was uninjured.
NOTES: Although it appears to be an ordinary accident and it just might be that, the accident should be looked at in the context of other witnesses dying that spotted or may have spotted Oswald on November 22, 1963. Fact is, there's no telling if the brakes or other parts of the motorcycle were tampered with or if the couple was chased before losing control. It's quite easy for an assassination team to chase someone down the street and blow brake line at a crucial moment (as there's evidence for in the 400 other deaths listed on ISGP). If it doesn't work, the team just tries again, because what newspaper would have posted a story about an ordinary man being followed by government hitmen? Not one. We can't say conclusively what else did or didn't happen.
***
Worrell looked up after the first shot and saw a rifle stick out from the 6th floor of the Texas School Book Depository, the traditional location. He saw it fire two more times. While running to the corner of the building, looking for safety, he heard one additional shot. He ran around the corner of the TSBD, north on Houston Street, to the back corner of the TSBD where he diagonally crossed the street and sat down, where he had a view of the backside of the TSBD. After about 3 minutes he saw a man come out the back, who turned the corner and ran south over Houston Street, where Worrell had come from. The man disappeared from sight when getting on Elm Street.
The problem is, there are two major problems with Worrell's testimony. The first is that two witnesses, George Rackley and James Romack, standing further back behind the Texas School Book Depository, reported seeing nothing at the back of the TSBD until the cops arrived and surrounded the building.
The other problem is that Worrell's description is close to what Oswald looked like, except for his pants (although Houston Street may have been quite dark in the shadow of the TSBD) and seemingly his jacket. Witnesses who saw the shooter all said he wore a light-colored or white t-shirt, open at the neck.
Subsequently the Warren Commission assumed that police officer Marrion Baker, who pointed his gun at Oswald in the canteen of the TSBD 90 seconds after shooting, until Oswald's boss explained to him he belonged with the staff, was wrong when she said that Oswald wore a light brown jacket at this point. The commission also assumed cab driver William Whaley was wrong when he described Oswald as wearing a grayish/heavy blue sports jacket, while acknowledging that all other details by Whaley were correct. This conclusion was reached because a TSBD briefly after Baker and a passenger on the bus described Oswald only as wearing his white long sleeve t-shirt, while housekeeper Earlene Roberts also remembered that Oswald wasn't wearing a jacket. Then, a few days after the shooting, the police found Oswald's blue jacket in a room of the TSBD, seemingly confirming that Oswald couldn't have been wearing his jacket when he left the building.
Here is Worrell's description of the man he saw running out of the TSBD (left) compared to Oswald (right):
Hair | Full in the back, dark brown/black | Full in the back, dark brown/black |
Height | 5'7-5'10 estimate | 5'9 (1.75 m) |
Weight | 155-165 lbs | 168 lbs (at autopsy) |
Age | Late 20s, fast runner | 24 |
Jacket | Dark sports jacket * | White shirt |
Pants | Light colored | Black (upon arrest) |
Again the FBI played a peculiar role. According to a November 30, 1963 FBI report, written by Robert P. Gemberling, Worrell had had a "profile view" of the suspect and was quite certain that the person he saw was Oswald. But when the Warren Commission asked him about this report, he explained he hadn't had a "profile view" and for his statement that he was quite certain that this man was Oswald, he said, "I don't know if I did or not." How vague. Possibly another manipulation of Gemberling and the whole FBI.
Robert Gemberling :
1993, Peter Dale Scott, 'Deep Politics and the Death of JFK', p. 51: "In their cover-up of the Milteer tape, the FBI and Secret Service concealed the fact that they had both had prior warning of "plans ... to kill President Joh F. Kennedy." But Milteer had predicted, correctly not merely the modus operandi of the assassination but also th cover-up: SOMERSETT: 'Boy, if that Kennedy gets shot, we have got to know where we are at. Because you know that will be a real shake, if they do that.' MILTEER: 'They wouldn't leave any stone unturned there no way. They will pick up somebody within hours afterwards, if anything like that would happen, just to throw the public off.' Since 1963 both Milteer, the extremist, and Somersett, the informant, have died. Their deaths might seem to corroborate the Washington Post's opinion in 1978 that it was by then too late to pursue the "cold trails" of the John F. Kennedy assassination. But the important leads here pertain not so much to the crime as to the cover-up, not so much to events in Miami or in Dallas as to those inside the FBI and other government agencies. For example, following the analogy of Watergate, one candidate it might be useful to interrogate is Robert P. Gemberling, a retired special agent under whose supervision the page with the missing Hosty entry was retyped, and through whose hands the important Somersett interviews reached the Warren Commission nine months late. It is not likely that Gemberling, an apparently modest and mild-mannered man, has important knowledge bearing directly on the assassination: but, like the Kroghs and Deans of Watergate, he could perhaps lead interviewers to those involved at a higher level."
1998, Gus Russo, 'Live by the Sword: The Secret War Against Castro and the Death of JFK' (digital): "Hosty's fellow agents knew better. Robert Gemberling, the agent who headed the Oswald investigation after the assassination, says that Hosty's fellow agents took up a collection for Hosty and his family. "Hoover would have been pissed if he knew," laughs Gemberling. "But the fact is that Jim Hosty was a terrific agent, who did as much or more than any other agent." Hoover knew Hosty had done nothing wrong, but someone had to be blamed for the heat the Bureau was taking over the handling of the Oswald case."
Why it makes sense Oswald did the shooting at the TSBD
- Knows the building, employees, their behavior and probable locations at various times, in and out.
- Was not seen for at least 15 minutes before the shooting and low profile for at least 30 minutes.
- Was not seen during the shooting.
- Was the only employee who left the building after the shooting.
- Nobody employees saw him leave.
- No strangers were spotted by personnel in the building.
- First spotted 90 seconds after the assassination hanging around at the second floor lunchroom by police officer Marrion Baker who let him go because Oswald's supervisor, Roy Truly, identified him as an employee. Affidavit, 24H199): "The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket."
- 2-2.5 minutes after shooting Oswald is still at the lunchroom. Mrs. Robert Reid tells him the president is shot. He mumbles something, but doesn't seem impressed or interested to go outside.
- Oswald is not seen again anymore. Nobody sees him leave.
- 3 minutes after shooting: Worrell, who will soon die, sees a person coming out the back of the TSBD who could well have been Oswald and runs south over Houston Street. He quickly loses sight of him.
- 7 minutes after shooting: Oswald is supposed to have boarded a bus, a few blocks east of the Texas School Book Depository. He soon transfers to the cab of William Whaley.
- Clearly Oswald is the only employee of the TSBD on the run and there's no evidence he guided anybody else in or out.
Various descriptions of Oswald's clothing
- At 12:45, 15 minutes after the shooting, Dallas Police Channel One broadcast a description of the shooter seen in the sniper’s nest window. The presumed source of this information was Howard Brennan. The description was: "The suspect in the shooting is approximately thirty, slender build, height five feet ten inches, weight one hundred sixty-five pounds, reported to be armed with what is thought to be .30 caliber rifle. Attention all squads. The suspect from Elm and Houston is reported to be an unknown white male about thirty, slender build, five feet ten inches tall, one hundred sixty-five pounds, armed with what is thought to be a 30-30 rifle."
- Howard Brennan (11-22-63 statement to the Sheriff’s Department, 19H470): "He was a white man in his early 30's, slender, nice looking, slender and would weigh about 165 to 175 pounds. He had on light colored clothing but definitely not a suit."
- Amos Euins (11-22-63 statement to the Sheriff’s Department, 19H474): "This was a white man, he did not have on a hat. I just saw this man for a few seconds."
- Robert Edwards (11-22-63 statement to the Sheriff’s Department, 19H473): “I noticed that he had on a sport shirt, it was light colored, it was yellow or white, something to that effect, and his hair was rather short. I thought he might be something around twenty-six, as near as I could tell.”
- Ronald Fischer (11-22-63 statement to the Sheriff’s Department, 19H475): “all I could see was his head. I noticed that he was light-headed and that he had on an open-necked shirt, and that was before the motorcade rounded the corner. I noticed his complexion seemed to be clear, and that he was in his twenty’s, appeared to be in his twenty’s.”
- Arnold Rowland (11-22-63 statement to the Sheriff’s Department, 24H224): “This man appeared to be a white man and appeared to have a light colored shirt on, open at the neck. He appeared to be of slender build and appeared to have dark hair.” (11-22-63 interview reported in an 11-23-63 FBI report, 26H126) "He advised this person was a white male of slender build and appeared to have dark hair. He appeared to have on a light colored shirt, open at the neck." On the 24th, in a second interview with the FBI, Rowland confirmed (16H954): "He appeared to be slender in proportion to his height, was wearing a white or light colored shirt, either collarless or open at the neck. He appeared to have dark hair."
- Motorcycle Officer Marrion Baker, who’d encountered Oswald in a stairway within a minute and a half of the shooting, described Oswald's dress as different than the man seen in the window (11-22-63 Affidavit, 24H199): “The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5’9”, 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket.” Had Oswald put a jacket on as he ran downstairs?
- Warren Commission, William Whaley: "He didn't have on the same clothes [at the police lineup the next day]. He had on a white T-shirt and black pants, and that is all he had on. ... I saw [Oswald's] picture in the paper the next morning, sir."
- Warren Commission, William Whaley : "Whaley testified that Oswald was wearing either the gray zippered jacket or the heavy blue jacket. [477] He was in error, however. Oswald could not possibly have been wearing the blue jacket during the trip with Whaley, since it was found in the "domino" room of the Depository late in November. [478] Moreover, Mrs. Bledsoe saw Oswald in the bus without a jacket and wearing a shirt with a hle at the elbow. On the other hand, Whaley identified Commission Exhibit No. 150 (the shirt taken from Oswald upon arrest) as the shirt his passenger was wearing. He also stated he saw a silver identification bracelet on his passenger's left wrist. [481] Oswald was wearing such a bracelet when he was arrested. [482] ... Mrs. [Earlene] Roberts testified that on Thursday, November 21, Oswald did not come home. On Friday, November 22, about 1 p.m., he entered the house in unusual haste ... and stayed no longer than 3 or 4 minutes. Oswald had entered the house in his shirt sleeves, but when he left, he was zipping up a jacket. ... At least 12 persons saw the man with the revolver in the vicinity of the Tippit crime scene at or immediately after the shooting. By the evening of November 22, five of them had identified Lee harvey Oswald in police lineups as the man they saw. ... A sixth did so the next day. Three others subsequently identified Oswald from a photograph. Two witnesses testified that Oswald resembled the man they had seen. One witness felt he was too distant from the gunman to make a positive identification. ... Apparently [Tippit] had reached for his gun; it lay beneath him outside the holster. Callaway picked up the gun."
- An 11-22 FBI interview with Mrs. Earlene Roberts, the housekeeper at Oswald’s rooming house, suggests he did not. It reports “While she was watching the TV, Lee came in, went to his room, got a coat, and left again...he proceeded to a bus stop which is near the house.” (CD5 p353). So maybe Baker and Worrell and Whaley were wrong. Perhaps Oswald had been wearing a light brown shirt, not a jacket.
- This possibility is supported by the 11-22 statement of Linnie Mae Randle, who'd spotted Oswald as he left for work. She swore "Lee was bareheaded, wearing a light brown or tan shirt. I don't remember what kind of trousers he had on." (CD87 p277)
- Still another signed statement from 11-22 suggests Baker was wrong entirely. Mrs. Robert A. Reid, who saw Oswald just after his encounter with Baker, asserted "When I saw him he was dressed in a white T-shirt and I don't recall what his trousers were like." (24H223)
- That afternoon, Oswald was arrested while wearing a dark brown, long-sleeved shirt. No coat or jacket. A gray jacket had been found near the Tippit killing. Dallas Chief of Detectives Captain Will Fritz interrogates Oswald at 3:15. Fritz’s notes on this meeting reflect that Oswald told him at this time that he went “home by bus changed britches.” No mention of taking a cab part of the way home nor of changing his shirt.
- An itemized list with an 11-22-63 date in the Dallas Police Archives (Box 5, folder 5, document 88) reflects that among the items confiscated by officers Moore, Potts, Turner, and Senkel from Oswald’s rooming house on this date are “1 brown shirt with button-down collar” and “1 pair gray trousers and other miscellaneous men’s clothing.”
- Throughout that day and evening, Oswald was dragged repeatedly before the television cameras. The available footage shows he was still wearing the brown shirt he was wearing when arrested, torn from his fight with the Dallas Police. Later that night, the shirt, along with the purported assassination weapon and much of the other first day evidence, was flown to Washington for testing by the FBI's crime lab (CD5 p159).
- The next morning, the FBI Laboratory provided the Dallas police with the following information: “A small tuft of textile fibers was found adhering to a jagged area on the left side of the metal butt plate on the K1 gun. Included in this tuft of fibers were gray-black, dark blue and orange-yellow cotton fibers which match in microscopic characteristics the gray-black, dark blue and orange-yellow cotton fibers composing the Q11 shirt of the suspect. These fibers could have originated from this shirt. (CD5, p164)” As the gray-black, dark blue and orange-yellow fibers of the brown shirt could now be linked, if not conclusively, with the rifle found on the sixth floor linked to the bullets, it now behooved the FBI and Dallas police to establish that Oswald was in fact wearing this shirt at the time of the shooting.
James Worrell's Warren Commission testimony, March 10, 1964
Mr. SPECTER - What time, to the best of your recollection, did you arrive at the intersection of Elm and Houston?
Mr. WORRELL - Well, about 10, 10:30, 10:45, something around there. There weren't many people standing around there then.
Mr. SPECTER - Well about how long before the Presidential motorcade came to Elm and Houston did you get there?
Mr. WORRELL - An hour; an hour and a half.
Mr. SPECTER - Are you sure you were at Love Field when the President arrived there?
Mr. WORRELL - Oh yes.
Mr. SPECTER - All right. Now I am going to show you a photograph which I have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 359. Take a look at that, if you would, please, and tell us whether or not you can identify what scene that is?
Mr. WORRELL - Yes, this is Elm, Pacific, and Commerce. This is the Depository right here, and this is Stemmons, and this is the way the President came down.
Mr. SPECTER - So that is the assassination scene itself?
Mr. WORRELL - Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER - Now take a look at that picture and tell us where you were standing - and I will give you a pencil so you can mark it on that picture itself - at the time the Presidential motorcade came by. Mark it with an "X," if you would, just exactly where were you standing, as best you can recollect it, at this moment, at the time the President went by.
Mr. WORRELL - Right underneath that window right there.
Mr. SPECTER - Now, how close were you standing to this building which I will ask you to identify; first of all, what building is that?
Mr. WORRELL - That is the Texas Depository.
Mr. SPECTER - All right. Now how close to that building were you standing?
Mr. WORRELL - I was, I don't know, 4 or 5 feet out from it.
Mr. SPECTER - Were you standing with your face to the building, with your back to the building, or how?
Mr. WORRELL - My back was to the building.
Mr. SPECTER - I show you a photograph which has been identified as Commission Exhibit 360 and I will ask you if you can identify what that building is?
Mr. WORRELL - That is the Depository.
Mr. SPECTER - All right. Now on this picture will you again, with an "X," mark where you were standing as closely as you can recollect it.
Mr. WORRELL - That car is in the way.
Mr. SPECTER - All right. Put a mark then right above where the car is, indicating where you were standing on the sidewalk near that building.
(Witness marking.)
Mr. SPECTER - Now, did you observe the President's motorcade come by?
Mr. WORRELL - Oh, yes.
Mr. SPECTER - Describe to us what you saw, heard, and observed at that time, as the motorcade came by.
Mr. WORRELL - Well, I saw him - I was standing looking - I don't know my directions very well; anyway, I was looking down towards Elm Street watching him come, and they filed by me --
Mr. SPECTER - On which street were you watching them come?
Mr. WORRELL - This way.
Mr. SPECTER - Look at Exhibit 359 and pick out which street they were on?
Mr. WORRELL - They were coming down this way, so on and so forth.
Mr. SPECTER - Well now, were they coming down Elm Street or were they coming down Main Street with a right-hand turn on to Houston Street with a curve on Houston down Elm, recollect it if you can?
Mr. WORRELL - That is right. They did turn around.
Mr. SPECTER - Did they come down --
Mr. WORRELL - I didn't see him up there.
Mr. SPECTER - Where was the President's motorcade at the time you first saw it?
Mr. WORRELL - Oh, about right in here.
Mr. SPECTER - Proceeding in this direction, indicating a generally northerly direction on Houston Street, right?
Mr. WORRELL - Yes, north.
Mr. SPECTER - Then tell us what the President's motorcade did?
Mr. WORRELL - It turned and went down this way.
Mr. SPECTER - Made a left-hand or right-hand turn?
Mr. WORRELL - Left-hand turn.
Mr. SPECTER - Did it pass right by in front of where you were standing?
Mr. WORRELL - Within a hundred feet, I guess.
Mr. SPECTER - Were you able to get a pretty good view of the President's motorcade?
Mr. WORRELL - Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER - All right; go ahead and tell us.
Mr. WORRELL - Didn't get too good a view of the President either, I missed out on there too. But as they went by, they got, oh at least another 50, 75 feet on past me, and then I heard the shots.
Mr. SPECTER - How many shots did you hear?
Mr. WORRELL - Four.
Mr. SPECTER - Did you observe anything at about that time?
Mr. WORRELL - Yes, sir, I looked up and saw the rifle, but I would say about 6 inches of it.
Mr. SPECTER - And where did you see the rifle?
Mr. WORRELL - I'm not going - I am not too sure but I told the FBI it was either in the fifth or the sixth floor on the far corner, on the east side.
Mr. SPECTER - Now looking at the picture which we have identified as Commission Exhibit No. 360, which is where you have drawn an "X," can you indicate the line of vision which you followed to the point where the rifle was to the best of your ability to recollect?
Mr. WORRELL - Well, when I heard the first shot it was to loud to be a firecracker, I knew that, because there was quite a big boom, and I don't know, just out of nowhere, I looked up like that, just straight up.
Mr. SPECTER - Indicating you looked straight back over your head, raising your head to look over your body at the 90 degree angle?
Mr. WORRELL - Yes; and I saw it for the second time and I looked back to the motorcade.
Mr. SPECTER - What did you observe at that time?
Mr. WORRELL - I saw about 6 inches of the gun, the rifle. It had - well it had a regular long barrel but it had a long stock and you can only see maybe 4 inches of the barrel, and I could see --
Mr. SPECTER - Were you able to observe any of the stock?
Mr. WORRELL - Oh, yes.
Mr. SPECTER - How much of the stock were you able to observe?
Mr. WORRELL - Just very little, just about 2 inches.
Mr. SPECTER - How many inches of the barrel then could you observe protruding beyond the stock?
Mr. WORRELL - About 4 inches, I would say, not very much.
Mr. SPECTER - Now, at the time of the second shot were you able to observe anything at that precise instant?
Mr. WORRELL - You mean as to firing it.
Mr. SPECTER - As to anything at all. What did you see when the second shot went off?
Mr. WORRELL - Well, I looked to see where he was aiming and after the second shot and I have seen the President slumping down in the seat, and --
Mr. SPECTER - Did you see the President slump in his seat after the second shot?
Mr. WORRELL - Uh, huh. And about that --
Mr. SPECTER - Did you look up and see the rifle between the first and the second shots?
Mr. WORRELL - Yes, sir. And saw the firing on the second and then before he could get a shot I was - I took in everything but especially the car, The President's car, and saw him slumping, and I looked up again and turned around and started running and saw it fire a third time, and then --
Mr. SPECTER - When did you see it fire a third time, when you looked up, the time you just described?
Mr. WORRELL - When I was, I did it all in one motion, I looked up, turned around and ran, pivoted.
Mr. SPECTER - What did you hear, if anything, after that?
Mr. WORRELL - Just a lot of commotion, everybody was screaming and saying "duck."
Mr. SPECTER - After the third shot, did you hear a fourth shot?
Mr. WORRELL - Oh, yes. Just as I got to the corner of Exhibit 360, I heard the fourth shot.
Mr. SPECTER - Well, did these four shots come close together or how would you describe the timing in general on those?
Mr. WORRELL - Succession.
Mr. SPECTER - Were they very fast?
Mr. WORRELL - They were right in succession.
Mr. SPECTER - Now going back to the position of the rifle which you testified that you saw, you say it was either on the fifth or sixth floor?
Mr. WORRELL - Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER - Is there any way you can tell us which floor it was on, or would the angle of your observation permit you to be sure it was the fifth or sixth floors?
Mr. WORRELL - I am not going to say I am positive, but that one there.
Mr. SPECTER - All right, would you mark that one --
Mr. WORRELL - Because that right there, I feel, would have obstructed my vision but I said it was either on the fifth or the sixth floor.
Mr. SPECTER - Well, now, will you mark with a "Y" the window which you have just pointed to?
(At this point Chief Justice Warren departed the hearing room.)
Mr. WORRELL - A "Y?"
Mr. SPECTER - A "Y."
(Witness marking.)
Mr. SPECTER - You have marked the "Y" over two windows. Was it the window - which window was it there as best you can recollect, as between those two?
Mr. WORRELL - I didn't mean to bring it down that far but this one.
Mr. SPECTER - Would you put an arrow then at the window that you have just indicated, was the one where the rifle was protruding from?
(Witness marking.)
Mr. SPECTER - So the sum of it is you are not sure whether it was the fifth or the sixth floor, but you believe it was the floor where you have marked a "Y" which is the sixth floor and that was the line of vision as you looked straight up over your head?
Mr. WORRELL - Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER - Where did you run, which is what you have just described that you did next?
Mr. WORRELL - Well a better view of it is here in 360. I ran down Houston Street alongside the building and then crossed over the street, I ran alongside the building and crossed over, and in 359, I was standing over here, and I saw this man come bustling out of this door.
Mr. SPECTER - Before you get to that, Mr. Worrell, let me show you a diagram which has been prepared here, which may be of some assistance to you in telling us your movements in running. I will mark this as Commission Exhibit 361 and ask Mr. David Belin, Staff Counsel, to make a statement as to the preparation of this exhibit for the record.
Mr. BELIN - The record will show that Exhibit 361 was prepared in the exhibit section of the Federal Bureau of Investigation by inspector Leo. J. Gauthier and Eugene Paul Airy, exhibit specialist, with the assistance of Charles D. Musser, illustrator, with particular reference to showing the Texas School Book Depository Building, and the immediate area with relation to the parking lot that the employees used.
Mr. SPECTER - Mr. Worrell, take a good look at this. Study it for just a moment in order to get your bearings on this particular map. This is the Texas School Book Depository Building designated as such. This is Houston Street and this is the direction I am indicating that the motorcade, as you have described from the other exhibit, came from, a generally northerly direction. This is generally north, and it made a left-hand turn which you have already described for the record, onto Elm Street Parkway going down the front there. Now perhaps the best place to start on this is with this red pencil, to put a small "X" where you were standing on this map.
Mr. WORRELL - Where I was standing?
Mr. SPECTER - Where you were standing.
(Witness marking.)
Mr. SPECTER - Now will you describe your movement in running as you had started to a few moments ago, indicating with a line of the red pencil just exactly where you went and describe it as you go along.
Mr. WORRELL - Well, as I said on the third shot I was looking up and pivoting and turning to run at the same time. When I got here I heard the fourth shot.
Mr. SPECTER - Indicating that you were at the point right at the corner of the building on Houston?
Mr. WORRELL - Making a turn.
Mr. SPECTER - Having moved slightly to your left, and beginning to make a turn to go in a generally northerly direction on Houston Street?
Mr. WORRELL - I thought that was north.
Mr. SPECTER - No, this is north, there is a symbol showing which is north.
Mr. WORRELL - Okay. Then I turned the corner, went right down beside the building on the sidewalk and when I got to the corner --
Mr. SPECTER - Corner of what?
Mr. WORRELL - Of this building.
Mr. SPECTER - Of the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. WORRELL - Yes.
Mr. SPECTER - And what did you do there?
Mr. WORRELL - Cut directly across, kind of at an angle.
Mr. SPECTER - Across Houston Street as you have drawn the red line there?
Mr. WORRELL - Yes, and I rested there, I was out of breath, I smoke too much, short winded.
Mr. SPECTER - Will you mark that "Y" where you stopped and rested and tell us how long you stopped there?
(Witness marking.)
Mr. WORRELL - How long?
Mr. SPECTER - Yes, sir.
Mr. WORRELL - I was there approximately 3 minutes before I saw this man come out the back door here.
Mr. SPECTER - All right. Now will you put a "Z" where you first saw the man whom you have just described or mentioned?
Mr. WORRELL - It is here I am pretty sure, I am not positive.
(Witness marking.)
Mr. SPECTER - You are pretty sure - but you can't be positive - but you are pretty sure?
Mr. WORRELL - Yes.
Mr. SPECTER - Okay. Now describe as best you can the man whom you have testified you saw at point "Z."
Mr. WORRELL - Describe his appearance?
Mr. SPECTER - Yes. Start by telling us how tall he was, to the best of your ability to recollect and estimate?
Mr. WORRELL - To the - it is going to be within 3 inches, 5-7 to 5-10.
Mr. SPECTER - What is your best estimate as to his weight?
Mr. WORRELL - 155 to 165.
Mr. SPECTER - What is your best estimate as to his height?
Mr. WORRELL - 5-7, 5-10.
Mr. SPECTER - Pardon me, your best estimate as to his age.
Mr. WORRELL - Well, the way he was running, I would say he was in his late twenties or middle - I mean early thirties. Because he was fast moving on.
Mr. SPECTER - Of what race was he?
Mr. WORRELL - White.
Mr. SPECTER - Can you describe the characteristics of his hair?
Mr. WORRELL - Black.
Mr. SPECTER - Did he have --
Mr. WORRELL - Well, I will say brunette.
Mr. SPECTER - Did he have a full head of hair, a partial head of hair, or what?
Mr. WORRELL - Well, see, I didn't see his face, I just saw the back of his head and it was full in back. I don't know what the front looked like. But it was full in back.
Mr. SPECTER - What clothes did the man have on?
Mr. WORRELL - Dark, like a jacket like that.
Mr. SPECTER - Indicating a dark gray jacket?
Mr. WORRELL - No, no. It was a jacket like that.
Mr. SPECTER - A suit jacket?
Mr. WORRELL - Yes.
Mr. SPECTER - Or was it a sports jacket?
Mr. WORRELL - Sports jacket.
Mr. SPECTER - Did not have on matching coat and trousers?
Mr. WORRELL - No.
Mr. SPECTER - Was it dark in color or light?
Mr. WORRELL - It was dark in color. I don't know whether it was blue, black, or brown, but it was dark, and he had light pants. And that is all I can say on his clothes, except his coat was open and kind of flapping back in the breeze when he was running.
Mr. SPECTER - Now, are there any other distinguishing characteristics that you can describe about him?
Mr. WORRELL - Not a thing.
Mr. SPECTER - What did he --
Mr. WORRELL - He wasn't holding nothing when he was running. He was just running.
Mr. SPECTER - What did you observe him do if, anything?
Mr. WORRELL - Well, when he ran out here, he ran along the side of the Depository Building and then when he got --
Mr. SPECTER - Make a dotted line as to where he went, or take this black pencil and make a line as to where he went.
(Witness marking.)
Mr. SPECTER - Where did you see him eventually go?
Mr. WORRELL - Well, he went on further.
Mr. SPECTER - Is that the last you saw of him?
Mr. WORRELL - Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER - And did something come between you and him so that your vision was obstructed?
Mr. WORRELL - Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER - At the point you have just dotted out there?
Mr. WORRELL - Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER - What obstructed your view of him at that juncture or at that point?
Mr. WORRELL - I can't really be sure, it was a building, but the type of building, I don't know.
Mr. SPECTER - During the course of your seeing him, did you ever get a view of his face?
Mr. WORRELL - Oh, no, no.
Mr. SPECTER - All right. What did you do next, Mr. Worrell?
Mr. WORRELL - Well, I went on down this way and headed back to Elm Street.
Mr. SPECTER - Indicating you went on down to Pacific?
Mr. WORRELL - Yes.
Mr. SPECTER - And then proceeded --
Mr. WORRELL - No, no; that is wrong. I went on Pacific and --
Mr. SPECTER - Just a minute. You proceeded from point "Y" on in a generally northerly direction to Pacific and then in what direction did you go on Pacific, this would be in an easterly direction?
Mr. WORRELL - I went east.
Mr. SPECTER - You went in an easterly direction how many blocks down Pacific?
Mr. WORRELL - I went down to Market and from Market I went on Ross.
Mr. SPECTER - You went left on Market down to Ross, and then?
Mr. WORRELL - From Ross I went all the way to Ervay.
Mr. SPECTER - Where were you heading for at the time?
Mr. WORRELL - For the bus stop near my mother's office. And I rode the bus from there out to the school and hitchhiked the rest of the way to Farmer's Branch.
Mr. SPECTER - All right. When did you first report to any official what you had seen and heard on this occasion?
Mr. WORRELL - Well, I turned the TV on early the next morning to see what had happened, and Chief Curry was making his plea --
Senator COOPER - Is that going to become part of the evidence at this point?
Mr. WORRELL - Chief Curry was making his plea for anyone who had seen the shooting, would they please come down and make a statement. So I called the Farmer Branch Police, and told them, and they came and picked me up, and the called the Dallas police, and they came way out there and picked me up and took me downtown to make a statement and brought me back home.
Mr. SPECTER - Mr. Worrell, before we leave this Exhibit 361, are you able to testify as to the accuracy of the scale drawing here which represents the part of it that you have testified about, specifically the presence of the Texas School Book Depository Building on the Northwest corner of Elm and Houston. Is that the accurate location of the building?
Mr. WORRELL - Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER - And is it an accurate reproduction of the intersection of Elm and Houston leading into the parkway on Elm Street?
Mr. WORRELL - As far as this?
Mr. SPECTER - Yes.
Mr. WORRELL - Yes.
Mr. SPECTER - As far as all the parts you have testified about Elm and Houston. Is it accurate that Pacific is one block in the northerly direction away from Elm Street?
Mr. WORRELL - Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER - And Ross is another block, generally in a northerly direction away from Pacific?
Mr. WORRELL - No, Ross is over here. This is Record Street.
Mr. SPECTER - Well, first there is Elm, then there is Pacific, and then there is Ross. Is that much accurate as the map shows it to be, is that the way the streets are laid out?
Mr. WORRELL - I think so.
Mr. SPECTER - How about the general width of Houston Street in relation to the general width of the Texas School Book Depository Building, is that about right?
Mr. WORRELL - I don't know, sir.
Mr. SPECTER - All right, that is fine.
At the same time that we have marked Exhibit 361, Mr. Chairman, I would like to use the next number in sequence, No 362 to mark the other half of this same exhibit which is designated Texas School Book Depository floor plan of the first floor, which we will not use at this time, but I would like to mark it in sequence.
And at this time I ask that the Commission Exhibits No. 359, 360, 361, and 362 be admitted into evidence.
Senator COOPER - So ordered. Let those exhibits be admitted as part of the evidence.
(The documents referred to, heretofore marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 359, 360, 361, and 362 were admitted into evidence.)
Mr. SPECTER - Mr. Worrell, you had told us that you heard a plea by Chief of Police Curry for all witnesses to come forward.
Mr. WORRELL - Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER - And you heard that plea on the 23rd of November?
Mr. WORRELL - It was on Saturday.
Mr. SPECTER - What action, if any, did you take in response to that request?
Mr. WORRELL - I called on the phone to the Farmer's Branch police.
Mr. SPECTER - You called who?
Mr. WORRELL - The Farmers Branch police.
Mr. SPECTER - I see. And what did you do then?
Mr. WORRELL - Well, I told them what I had seen, and they said, "Well, stay there and we will come and get you."
Mr. SPECTER - Did they come and get you?
Mr. WORRELL - Oh, yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER - Did you then tell the police what you had seen and heard?
Mr. WORRELL - I told a Lt. Butler what I had seen, and I don't now if - they placed the call to into the Dallas police and something like an hour later they came to pick me up there.
Mr. SPECTER - Did you make a statement or take an affidavit on what you had seen and heard?
Mr. WORRELL - To the Dallas Police?
Mr. SPECTER - Yes.
Mr. WORRELL - Oh, yes, sir. I made a statement and signed five of them.
Mr. SPECTER - I will show you a paper which is marked Commission Exhibit 363 which purports to be an affidavit bearing your signature.
Mr. WORRELL - Yes, Sir.
Mr. SPECTER - Let me ask you first of all if that is your signature?
Mr. WORRELL - Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER - And would you take just a minute, take your time and read that affidavit over, please.
Have you had a chance to read that over, Mr. Worrell?
Mr. WORRELL - Yes, Sir.
Mr. SPECTER - Did you tell us that you signed five different statements, or five copies of the same statement?
Mr. WORRELL - Five copies of the same statement.
Mr. SPECTER - Is this the statement which you signed in affidavit form at the time?
Mr. WORRELL - Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER - And --
Mr. WORRELL - Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER - As you have just - have you had time to read it over just now?
Mr. WORRELL - Oh, yes.
Mr. SPECTER - Is that statement accurate based on your current recollection of the event?
Mr. WORRELL - It is accurate down to, well, I changed my height to 5-8 from 5-7.
Mr. SPECTER - Aside from that minor variation, is it accurate in its entirety; that is, is it all accurate?
Mr. WORRELL - Well I left out, when I was making my affidavit, I left out, while I was running I heard a gun fire two more times. Well as I told you, I was turning the corner when I heard it and saw it fire the third time, and then the fourth.
Mr. SPECTER - Now, are there any other additions or modifications that you would like to make from the contents of you statement in accordance with your recollection at this moment?
Mr. WORRELL - I can't verify that - the time they got here because I am not too sure of that.
Mr. SPECTER - You are not sure of that now?
Mr. WORRELL - No.
Mr. SPECTER - All right. Are there any other modifications that you would want to make in the contents of the statement?
Mr. WORRELL - Leave out firecracker. It sounded, it was too loud for a firecracker?
Mr. SPECTER - You current recollection is that it was too loud for a firecracker?
Mr. WORRELL - Yes.
Mr. SPECTER - Is there any other respect in which your current recollection differs from this affidavit?
Mr. WORRELL - Instead of looking, I ran, I looked up
Mr. SPECTER - Is there any other aspect in which your current recollection differs from the affidavit?
Mr. WORRELL - Well, I left out the barrel of the rifle, I left out part of the stock. I didn't recollect that at the time.
Mr. SPECTER - Is there any other aspect in which you current recollection differs from the facts set forth in this affidavit?
Mr. WORRELL - Well, everything else is O.K.
Mr. SPECTER - What is your best estimate as to the length of time between the first shot and the last shot which you heard?
Mr. WORRELL - The best estimate 5, 6, seconds.
Mr. SPECTER - Have you talked to, been interviewed by or given a statement to any Federal agent?
Mr. WORRELL - The FBI down at Dallas.
Mr. SPECTER - How many times have you seen the FBI agents?
Mr. WORRELL - Once.
Mr. SPECTER - Do you recollect the names of the agents you saw?
Mr. WORRELL - No, Sir.
Mr. SPECTER - Do you recollect when it was that you saw those agents?
Mr. WORRELL - It was on that Saturday, the 23rd.
Mr. SPECTER - And where were you when you saw them?
Mr. WORRELL - In the Dallas Police Station.
Mr. SPECTER - How long did that interview last?
Mr. WORRELL - Thirty minutes.
Mr. SPECTER - Did you sign a statement for them?
Mr. WORRELL - I just signed it for the Dallas police. They didn't have me sign anything.
Mr. SPECTER - Have you been interviewed by any other Federal agent or representative?
Mr. WORRELL - Well, Mr. Sorrels interviewed me when he called me and asked me some more questions when he called me up Wednesday night, I guess it was.
Mr. SPECTER - Was that in relationship to your coming here to this Commission hearing?
Mr. WORRELL - Yes.
Mr. SPECTER - What sort of questions did Mr. Sorrels ask you?
Mr. WORRELL - What I saw. And I told him.
Mr. SPECTER - Was that just on the telephone?
Mr. WORRELL - Yes.
Mr. SPECTER - How long did that conversation last?
Mr. WORRELL - Not very long. He talked to my mother first. He talked to her for 15 minutes, something like this.
Mr. SPECTER - Was he talking to her about what you saw or about travel arrangements to get you here?
Mr. WORRELL - I don't know. I was watching television, I didn't know even who she was talking to.
Mr. SPECTER - All right. Aside from that conversation with Mr. Sorrels and the interview you had with the FBI, have you ever talked with any agent or representative of the Federal Government.
Mr. WORRELL - No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER - Have you talked to any police official of Dallas or the State of Texas after you gave this affidavit?
Mr. WORRELL - No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER - Based on seeing only the back of this man, were you able to make any identification of him?
Mr. WORRELL - No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER - Mr. Chairman, I move for the admission into evidence of the other exhibit which we have used with Mr. Worrell being Commission Exhibit No. 362.
Senator COOPER - The exhibit will be admitted into evidence.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 362 for identification and received in evidence.)
Mr. SPECTER - That concludes our questions.
Senator COOPER - You stated that, I believe, you looked up after you had heard the first report?
Mr. WORRELL - Yes, sir.
Senator COOPER - You looked up and saw the barrel of a rifle, and then the rifle fired. What made you know that it fired?
Mr. WORRELL - Pardon?
Senator COOPER - How did you know it was fired when you were looking at it?
Mr. WORRELL - Well, I saw what you might call a little flame and smoke.
Senator COOPER - You saw something that came out of the barrel?
Mr. WORRELL - Yes, sir.
Senator COOPER - Were you looking at it when you heard the third report?
Mr. WORRELL - Yes, sir, looking at it, turning around and started to run.
Senator COOPER - Did you see anything then?
Mr. WORRELL - Same thing, a little flash of fire and then smoke. I didn't see it on the fourth one.
Senator COOPER - Did you only look at the car in which the President was riding one time when you saw him slump?
Mr. WORRELL - Yes, sir.
Senator COOPER - Did you look back at the President's car then?
Mr. WORRELL - No, sir. I didn't do that because, I mean I didn't know if there was one or more guns, because I wondered why if it was in such rapid succession being a bolt action, I found out later, and I didn't know what was coming off, so I was running to the back of the building because I figured that would be the safest place.
Senator COOPER - Did you see anyone in the windows, in the Texas Depository Building?
Mr. WORRELL - No, sir.
Senator COOPER - Did you notice where this man you have described later as running away from the building, did you see him come out of the building?
Mr. WORRELL - Yes, sir.
Senator COOPER - Where?
Mr. WORRELL - At the back entrance. Approximately where I put the mark "Z."
Senator COOPER - Was he running all the time you saw him?
Mr. WORRELL - Yes, sir, he sure was.
Senator COOPER - That is all.
Mr. WRIGHT - Prior to hearing the first shot, had you looked up at the School Book Depository Building?
Mr. WORRELL - No, sir; I sure didn't.
Mr. WRIGHT - That is all.
Mr. SPECTER - Were you able to observe the direction of the barrel which you have described?
Mr. WORRELL - Pointing right down at the motorcade?
Mr. SPECTER - Any special part of the motorcade?
Mr. WORRELL - I mean, I couldn't really say that because it was too high up and he could have been pointing at anyone of the cars. I mean I couldn't tell from where I was standing.
Mr. SPECTER - Was it on the part of the motorcade which had turned down Elm Street or on the part of the motorcade that was still on Houston or what?
Mr. WORRELL - It was the part that was turned down Elm Street.
Mr. SPECTER - Mr. Worrell, we have a report from the Federal Bureau of Investigation which contains a purported interview with you, designated as report of Robert P. Gemberling dated November 30, 1963, which has this statement:
"He" - referring to you - "Stated that last night when he saw photographs of Lee Harvey Oswald on television he felt this was the person he had seen running away from the building. He stated this person did not look back but he was certain this was a white person since he had a profile view."
My question, first of all, to you: Did you have a profile view of the man who ran away from the building that you described?
Mr. WORRELL - No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER - The second question is, did you tell the FBI agent who interviewed you, that you felt that this person was Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. WORRELL - I don't know if I did or not.
Mr. SPECTER - Did you see anyone else leave the building, that is the Texas School Book Depository Building, except the man you have already described to us?
Mr. WORRELL - No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER - I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Senator COOPER - Are there any further questions? I believe we will stand in recess until 2 o'clock.
Whereupon, at 1:10 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)
***
Warren Commission testimony of George W. Rackly, Jr. on April 8, 1964:
Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir. And I had walked out in front of the place, to where I could get a better view, as a fellow says.
Mr. BELIN. Where were you standing?
Mr. RACKLEY. Well. I had walked out in the truck lot.
Mr. BELIN. In the truck lot?
Mr. RACKLEY. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. And was that --
Mr. RACKLEY. You might say would have been in the middle of the street.
Mr. BELIN. Would that have been in the middle of Houston Street?
Mr. RACKLEY. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. In what direction were you facing?
Mr. RACKLEY. Facing south.
Mr. BELIN. All right, did you see the motorcade at all?
Mr. RACKLEY. No.
Mr. BELIN. What did you see?
Mr. RACKLEY. I didn't practically see anything.
Mr. BELIN. Did you hear any sounds at all?
Mr. RACKLEY. Yes. Heard the sounds of the parade.
Mr. BELIN. Did you hear the sounds that sounded like firecrackers or shots at all?
Mr. RACKLEY. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Didn't hear that?
Mr. RACKLEY. No.
Mr. BELIN. About how far would you have been from the northeast corner of the Texas School Book Depository when you were standing there?
Mr. RACKLEY. I would say right at a block.
Mr. BELIN. About a block. Do you have any idea about how many feet that is?
Mr. RACKLEY. No, sir; I don't
Mr. BELIN. Were you just standing there, or were you walking?
Mr. RACKLEY. I was just standing there.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see anything happen at all there?
Mr. RACKLEY. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see anyone in the parade?
Mr. RACKLEY. The only thing - I told the guy, he was down there, the only thing that I saw that looked suspicious to me, there was something like a hundred pigeons flew up like you shot into them, and I noticed that, but I never heard no shots.
Mr. BELIN. Where did you see them fly from?
Mr. RACKLEY. From over the top of the building.
Mr. BELIN. Which building? The School Book Depository or over on the other side?
Mr. RACKLEY. The Trinity Building.
Mr. BELIN. Which building did they fly off of?
Mr. RACKLEY. I wasn't looking. I just seen they all flew together.
Mr. BELIN. Did it look like they were flying up from both buildings?
Mr. RACKLEY. Both buildings.
Mr. BELIN. You don't know about when this took place?
Mr. RACKLEY. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. BELIN. About what time was it that you were looking that way, do you remember, offhand?
Mr. RACKLEY. No; but it was just at the time that the parade was nearing there, I know that.
Mr. BELIN. Had any of the parade already gone by the corner of Elm and Houston?
Mr. RACKLEY. I couldn't say.
Mr. BELIN. So you don't know whether it did or didn't?
Mr. RACKLEY. No.
Mr. BELIN. But would you say it was about that time that the motorcade was to be going by there?
Mr. RACKLEY. It was between 11 and 12.
Mr. BELIN. It was between 11 and 12?
Mr. RACKLEY. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. O'clock?
Mr. RACKLEY. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. What time did you - was this before or after you had lunch?
Mr. RACKLEY. Well. I just eat just any time I get a chance.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know accurately what time it was?
Mr. RACKLEY. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. BELIN. Could it have been as late as 12:30?
Mr. RACKLEY. No.
Mr. BELIN. It was before 12:30?
Mr. RACKLEY. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Before 12?
Mr. RACKLEY. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Sometime between 11 and 12?
Mr. RACKLEY. Well, it was at the time that, really, that they had shot him, because I was there when the policemen covered the place.
Mr. BELIN. You were there when the policemen covered the place?
Mr. RACKLEY. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. With relation to the time that the policemen covered the place, how many minutes before that did you see the birds fly up?
Mr. RACKLEY. I saw the pigeons there 2 or 3 minutes before that.
Mr. BELIN. Now after you saw the pigeons, you saw the police covering the place?
Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Within 2 or3 minutes after you saw the pigeons?
Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see any people coming out the back door at all?
Mr. RACKLEY. No.
Mr. BELIN. Could you see the back door of the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr. RACKLEY. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. That was at the dock they have back there?
Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Were you looking towards that direction?
Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. About how long did you keep your eyes fixed over there?
Mr. RACKLEY. Oh, I would say 5 minutes anyhow. Probably 10. I was looking up that way at all times.
Mr. BELIN. Five or 10 minutes, you figure?
Mr. RACKLEY. Yes
Mr. BELIN. Did you see any people leave the Texas School Book Depository by way of the rear exit?
Mr. RACKLEY. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see any people running north on Houston Street?
Mr. RACKLEY. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Did you tell your company supervisor that there had been some shooting?
Mr. RACKLEY. No; not right then.
Mr. BELIN. Later did you tell them?
Mr. RACKLEY. Yes; I imagine.
Mr. BELIN. You said you stayed there 5 or 10 minutes looking to the south?
Mr. RACKLEY. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do after that?
Mr. RACKLEY. Well, when the policemen began to crowd around and they all
over the place, well then I told him I thought that something had happened over there.
I wasn't expecting anything like that until I just, of course, seen the policemen all out there running back. They came out the back door and the side
Mr. BELIN. did you tell that to that you thought something happened there?
Mr. RACKLEY. Gail George.
Mr. BELIN. Is that your Forman?
Mr. RACKLEY. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. After you said you kept your eyes on this looking south for 5 or 10 minutes, what did you do after that?
Mr. RACKLEY. Well, I went back to the office.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do after that?
Mr. RACKLEY. Well, I don't remember.
Mr. BELIN. During this period of 5 or 10 minutes, did you walk close to the building at all, or just stand there?
Mr. RACKLEY. Just stood out there.
Mr. BELIN. What about Romack? Did he stand with you, or did he walk closer?
Mr. RACKLEY. He walked closer.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of, whether I have asked it or not, that in any way might be relevant to this Inquiry?
Mr. RACKLEY. It wasn't a thing that I knew. I didn't really know or expect what was taking place.
Mr. BELIN. Other than the pigeons?
Mr. RACKLEY. Yes.
James Romack testimony, April 8, 1964:
Mr. ROMACK. Then I hired out with the Coordinating Transportation Co.
Mr. BELIN. Coordinated Transportation Co.?
Mr. ROMACK. Right, which that is where I am at today.
Mr. BELIN. What have you been doing for them?
Mr. ROMACK. Driving mostly your big van trailer-truck and bobtail trucks and pickup and delivery service.
Mr. BELIN. Where were you around the noon hour of November 22, 1963?
Mr. ROMACK. I was on lunch period, Just piddling around out north by east, I would say, from the Texas School Book Depository Building.
Mr. BELIN. You were standing around Houston Street?
Mr. ROMACK. It would be just about where Houston would intersect, but the street was under construction at the time. They didn't have it, which they still don't have it opened up for through traffic.
Mr. BELIN. Were you standing with anyone?
Mr. ROMACK. Well, Lee and Mr. Rackley, we walked out there together originally to start with. We were kind of piddling around, and I kind of walked off ahead of him.
Mr. BELIN. Was that George W. Rackley you were referring to?
Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Is he also known as "Pop" Rackley?
Mr. ROMACK. Right.
Mr. BELIN. You said you started walking away. Where did you walk?
Mr. ROMACK..Toward the School Book Depository Building.
Mr. BELIN. Along what street did you walk?
Mr. ROMACK. Well, it wouldn't be no street at the time.
Mr. BELIN. Well, if there would be a street?
Mr. ROMACK. I guess it would be just about, I don't know whether they are going to split Ross and Houston Street up.
Mr. BELIN. Would you be looking straight at Houston Street?
Mr. ROMACK. More or less. I would be looking at Houston Street; yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. All right, and what happened as you were walking?
Mr. ROMACK. I heard these three rifle shots sound out.
Mr. BELIN. Did you know they were rifle shots?
Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir; I did. I go elk hunting in Colorado every year in October, and I just came back from this trip, and I am pretty familiar with a rifle shot.
Mr. BELIN. How many did you hear?
Mr. ROMACK. Three.
Mr. BELIN. Where did they sound like they came from?
Mr. ROMACK. It sounded, I guess, like it came from that building, but it wasn't on my side of the building.
Mr. BELIN. Did it sound like it was up high or low?
Mr. ROMACK. I would say they were high. I have never been asked that question, but it did sound like they were running out high, I would say, and the wind was blowing a little bit from the south that day, I can remember.
Mr. BELIN. The wind was blowing into your face as you walked, or was it blowing from your back, sir?
Mr. ROMACK. It was blowing into my face.
Mr. BELIN. Into your face.
How far were you from the School Book Depository Building when you heard the shots?
Mr. ROMACK. Oh, I probably was 125 yards. 100 to 125 yards, 1 would say.
Mr. BELIN. Would that be from the nearest corner of the building or from the front of Elm Street?
Mr. ROMACK. From the nearest corner of the building.
Mr. BELIN. From the northeast corner of the building?
Mr. ROMACK. Right.
Mr. BELIN. How close did the shots sound like they came together?
Mr. ROMACK. Oh, they happened pretty fast. I would say maybe 3 or 4 seconds apart.
Mr. BELIN. Were they equally spaced, or did one sound like it was closer than another one in time?
Mr. ROMACK. It sounded like to me that they were evenly spaced. They rang out pretty fast.
Mr. BELIN. Have you ever operated a bolt action rifle?
Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Do you own one?
Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Did it sound like the shots were faster than it could be operated with a bolt action rifle?
Mr. ROMACK. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. What kind of rifle do you have now, by the way?
Mr. ROMACK. I have a---it is a---I can't answer that really.
Mr. BELIN. What caliber?
Mr. ROMACK. It is a 30-06.
Mr. BELIN. 30-06 rifle?
Mr. ROMACK. Yes, it is. And it is an old World War I mechanism. It is either an Enfield or a Springfield.
Mr. BELIN. Bolt action?
Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. You heard those rifle shots, and you think you could shoot your rifle accurately as fast as you heard those shots?
Mr. ROMACK. I don't, wouldn't think that I would be that good a shot; no, sir; because I shot at an elk four times and I hit him everywhere and missed him one time out of four.
Mr. BELIN. How far was it?
Mr. ROMACK. He was, I would say, 350 to 500 yards away. He was quite a distance.
Mr. BELIN. Maybe I should have asked the question this way. Suppose he was 100 yards away or else 50 yards?
Mr. ROMACK. I would be more accurate with my shooting, I sure would.
Mr. BELIN. If he were, say, from 40 to 75 yards away, or not an elk, a person, do you think you could shoot 40 to 75 yards away accurately as quickly as you heard those rifle sounds?
Mr. ROMACK. I wouldn't say I could; no, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Do you think an accurate rifleman could?
Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Well, you heard the shots, and then what did you do?
Mr. ROMACK. Well, I knew something was wrong. I mean, I could sense that with in my own self.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. ROMACK. And I looked up and I felt kind of chilly looking down towards the which I am facing the Houston entrance, and I looked down toward where all the people were standing along, the motorcade was passing by, and just immediately after I heard the shots, I saw a policeman running north towards me. He was running to look to see if somebody was running out of the back of this building.
Mr. BELIN. What building?
Mr. ROMACK. Texas School Book Depository Building. And he didn't stay but just, oh, he was just there to check and he runs back.
Well, sensing that something is wrong, I automatically take over watching the building for the man.
Mr. BELIN. What part of the building were you watching?
Mr. ROMACK. The back
Mr. BELIN. Could you see that back dock in the back part?
Mr. ROMACK. Well, I mean, they got it sealed off. I could see as much as anyone could see.
Mr. BELIN. Could you see---there are some stairs that go up to the back dock, aren't there?
Mr. ROMACK. Right here.
Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to a first floor plan of the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr. ROMACK. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Did you watch those stairs?
Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. How long did you watch them after you saw the policeman leave?
Mr. ROMACK. Well, I watched them all the time until someone arrived, and the only time I did take my back off, turn my back to the building was Sam Pate with his KBOX news, he arrived before any of the police or anyone.
Mr. BELIN. Is that KBOX
Mr. ROMACK. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Is that a radio or television station?
Mr. ROMACK. It is a radio station.
Mr. BELIN. How long did you take your eyes off then?
Mr. ROMACK. He was driving up and they were having a little high---the city has ,a piece of wood that they use to stop traffic coming through, and I'd taken that so he could come through, drive his truck.
Mr. BELIN. How long did you leave your post?
Mr. ROMACK. I didn't leave. That was right there, even closer than what we were. But all I did was let that down for him, and then we
Mr. BELIN. Would that have taken less than a minute?
Mr. ROMACK. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Less than 30 seconds, do you know?
Mr. ROMACK. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay after that watching that back door?
Mr. ROMACK. Well, we were all there watching it then.
Mr. BELIN. How long a period of time?
Mr. ROMACK. Pardon?
Mr. BELIN. Did you see a policeman go up there?
Mr. ROMACK. I saw policemen up in there. I didn't see anyone come up the back. They came in the front, all---most of them.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see any employees walk up the back way?
Mr. ROMACK. There was two other gentlemen which I never said anything.
about, that taken over. They were FBI or something standing right here at the very entrance, and just stood there.
Mr. BELIN. You are pointing again to the back stairway that leads up from the street to the dock on the north side of the building?
Mr. ROMACK. Right.
Mr. BELIN. See anyone else?
Mr. ROMACK. No, sir; other than all the motorcycle officers and squad cars. They started coming in, I would say, in 4 minutes from the time that this happened. They were swarming the building, which naturally. I quit watching anything particular.
Mr. BELIN. In other words, about 4 minutes after the shots came you quit watching it? Would that be accurate, or not?
Mr. ROMACK. Well, I would say somewhere in the neighborhood of 5 minutes, 4 or 5 minutes. That would probably be true. I stayed there, but I wasn't particularly watching.
Mr. BELIN. In other words, then as I understand your testimony, you said that from about the time of the shots until about 5 minutes after the shots, you watched the back door of the building?
Mr. ROMACK. Right.
Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not you saw anyone leave the building?
Mr. ROMACK. They wasn't anyone left the building.
Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not you saw anyone enter the building other than a police officer?
Mr. ROMACK. No one entered while I was standing there.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see anybody running down the street near you at all?
Mr. ROMACK. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Where were you standing? How far were you from this stairway going to this Houston Street dock?
Mr. ROMACK. Well, after this KBOX---you are asking prior to before he got there?
Mr. BELIN. Before KBOX got there first?
Mr. ROMACK. I would say I moved between 75 yards.
Mr. BELIN. 75 yards of the northeast corner of the building?
Mr. ROMACK. 75 yards of the northeast corner of the building.
Mr. BELIN. After KBOX got there?
Mr. ROMACK. He got to about, I would say, maybe 35 yards to the building, or 40. That is where he parked his car.
Mr. BELIN. How long did he stay, KBOX?
Mr. ROMACK. Oh, I would say 35 or 40 minutes. Then I went and called my wife and was telling her the sad news, and then I went back and stayed again. I ended up laying off work. I didn't even work that afternoon.
Mr. BELIN. Did you ever contact the FBI?
Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. When did you do that?
Mr. ROMACK. It was on a Saturday night after I got in from work.
Mr. BELIN. What month was it?
Mr. ROMACK. It was this past month.
Mr. BELIN. You mean March?
Mr. ROMACK. Right.
Mr. BELIN. What caused you to contact the FBI in March?
Mr. ROMACK. I was trying to pinpoint the day that I must have come in from It was on the weekend that I'd come home, and there was a paper up left-hand corner.
Mr. BELIN. You mean the newspaper?
Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Dallas newspaper?
Mr. ROMACK. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Which one, do you know, offhand?
Mr. ROMACK. Herald, the paper that I take.
Mr. BELIN. What did you see in the paper?
Mr. ROMACK. I saw an article that was written by a guy, which I have been concerned about this thing all the way through, the assassination, and I got to reading it, and it is a story that just don't jibe with about me sitting there and watching the building. It just kind of upset me to know there is some monkey just hatched up such a story.
Mr. BELIN. What is the story that you read that you got concerned about?
Mr. ROMACK. About a guy seeing a rifle drawn in from the building above him, and he also seen the people as the shots were being fired, and he also seen some character running toward me with an overcoat on which was brown or gray or blue, and he heard 4 shots.
Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. Do you remember what page of the paper this was on?
Mr. ROMACK. It was on the headlines. I don't mean the headlines. It was on the front page in the left corner of the page.
Mr. BELIN. Now you say something concerned you about the article. Was it the fact that he said he saw a rifle there that concerned you?
Mr. ROMACK. No, sir; the fact that he was running somebody over me, and that is what I was out there doing. That is what I was doing. I was watching.
Mr. BELIN. You mean the portion of the article that concerned you was that someone said that someone else was running?
Mr. ROMACK. Towards Pacific Street.
Mr. BELIN. Towards Pacific Street from the direction of the School Book Depository?
Mr. ROMACK. That is the way the article read, sir.
Mr. BELIN. What did you tell the FBI when you called them?
Mr. ROMACK. I told them, tried to tell them about the same thing that I am telling you right now today.
Mr. BELIN. Have I ever mentioned before, by the way, or talked to you before this morning?
Mr. ROMACK. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not as soon as we met, you came in here and we started taking your deposition immediately?
Mr. ROMACK. Right. Unless you called me last Saturday. I don't remember who called me.
Mr. BELIN. Well, on Saturday, what did someone do, call you and tell you to come down here?
Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Did that person talk to .you about the facts that we were talking about now?
Mr. ROMACK. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. It wasn't I, just for the record. I believe it was the Secret Service that called you, but I am not sure.
Mr. ROMACK. It was.
Mr. BELIN. Now, I understand your testimony correctly, what you are stating is that you don't believe anyone ran out of the building towards you, at least within the first 5 minutes after the shots?
Mr. ROMACK. Right.
Mr. BELIN. You don't think anyone went out of the building during the first 5 minutes after the shots?
Mr. ROMACK. That is true.
Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else, any other information you have that you feel might be helpful to the investigation of the assassination?
Mr. ROMACK. I can't think of anything, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Well, we want to thank you very much for taking the time to come down here. We appreciate your cooperation, and certainly your cooperation particularly in volunteering to call the FBI to contact them for this information.
Mr. ROMACK. Well, I felt that---I called an attorney that I know and talked to him about the deal before I called the FBI, and I told him I wasn't doing this for a publicity thing. It was something I just didn't, after reading that article, it kind of upset me, and he said he felt it was my duty to call the FBI and let them know.
And that is when I went ahead and made my statement.
Mr. BELIN. Now, Mr. Romack, you have the right, if you want, to come back down here after these notes of the court reporter are typed, to read the typewritten transcript and sign it, or you can waive reading it and signing it and just have her send it directly to Washington, whatever you want to do. It makes no difference with us.
Mr. ROMACK. I will waive.
Mr. BELIN. You want to waive it then?
Mr. . ROMACK. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Again we want to thank you very much.
Mr. ROMACK. You are quite welcome.